Police relations with parents and children was one of the main themes of a Saugerties meeting on January 6 designed to set the agenda for a state police reform commission. The co-hosts for the meeting, sponsored by the Saugerties Police Reform and Reinvention Committee, were Christine Dinsmore, Rob Irizarry, Robert Thomann and Gilda Riccardi.
The session attracted a lively amount of community participation, as had been hoped.
Riccardi, the moderator, described the commission’s formation as in line with the governor’s executive order following the death of George Floyd at the hands of the Minneapolis, Minnesota police in May, 2020 and the growth of the Black Lives Matter movement.
Riccardi quoted Governor Andrew Cuomo on the reason for forming the review committees. “Urgent and immediate action is needed to eliminate racial inequities in policing to modify and modernize policing strategies, policies, procedures and practices; and to develop practices to better address the particular needs of communities of color, to promote public safety, improve community engagement and foster trust.”
The full committee, formed in October, consists of: Dinsmore, Tamika Dunkley, Irizarry, Annette Mulyanti, Frazen Nadim, Joseph Puma, Riccardi, Thomann, Gina Kiniry and Lanny Walter.
The committee’s mandate is to review the procedures and practices of the local police and develop a plan to align law enforcement with the needs of the communities they serve. The mandate specifically includes gender and racial bias, she said.
Laying the groundwork
“That lays the groundwork for what this committee was formed to do,” Riccardi said. “Once we complete our report, with recommendations, it must be adopted by the Saugerties Town Board. The town board then submits the recommendations to the state, and then it’s approved, hopefully, by the state. If it’s not approved, they will withhold funds that should be coming to the town, so it’s important that we do what is requested.”
The committee includes Police Chief Joseph Sinagra, assistant district attorney Lauren Swan and the assistant public defender, Riccardi said. It has been meeting since October, and focused on collecting data, reviewing policies and procedures, complaint history, arrests and dispositions, budget and contracts, and overall general research on issues and programs nationally on the subject.
The session on Wednesday, January 6, was to inform the public about why the committee was formed, its mission, and the work done thus far, “and, most important, to listen to you,” Riccardi said.
Farzan Nadim discussed a community survey developed and taken over the past several months. “We have relied on this survey for getting both data and your comments,” he said. There are questions about the Saugerties police and about the responder, including a number of questions, “some of which may be obtrusive, but they are helpful to us,” he said. “Remember, we don’t know who you are, and we ask you explicitly not to identify yourself.”
He asked residents who have not taken the survey to do so. A link to the survey is at https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeH–pJHPvJrk3XlnrinQgrfB9B8Yt7BHrDrihhwpaDj86aGw/viewform or on the SPRRC Facebook page.
“Without data, it is very hard to determine if any group or race or ethnicity is a victim of any disparate policing in our community, whether it’s overt or implicit,” explained Riccardi. She referred to several studies which the committee was in the process of digesting. A Suffolk County survey found that black motorists were four times more likely than whites to be pulled over, three times more likely to be subject to physical force, twice as likely to be subjected to vehicle search and 84 percent more likely to be restrained. “But despite the staggering statistics, the six-year study found that black motorists were 29 percent more likely than whites to have no contraband in the car in a vehicle search,White motorists, though less likely to be stopped, were more likely to have contraband.”
A Stanford University study analyzed 95 million traffic stops. “The study again confirmed that black and Hispanic motorists were pulled over and searched disproportionately to white drivers.”
Local data on race lacking
The committee has a lot of data from the local police website, Riccardi said, “but we don’t have specific data on racial or gender composition. That may be something our group is looking at.”
“Anonymous” said her son had been in some trouble, and while he was under arrest his girlfriend trashed his apartment. The police did not follow up, she said, adding that “you can’t serve two masters. The police may be paid by the government, but they serve the people.”
Jillian Gordon, a social worker and mother of a biracial child, said she had worked in the South Bronx for twelve years on a number of high-profile cases involving police brutality against African Americans and Latinos. “Police brutality is a very big deal in the city of New York,” she said. “I do also want to say I highly respect Saugerties police because they are personally helpful, insuring my family’s safety.” She addressed Chief Sinagra, expressing her gratitude.
“I do believe we have a highly charged, racially driven community,” she said. “I would like to see more of our youth have more of the police really make an alliance with them, to feel they are protecting them, especially the children of color because they are targets. My son is no longer attending public school because he was targeted as a biracial child.” Gordon said she was glad to see the committee working on the issues, and that the committee was welcome to draw on her expertise if it was needed.
Christine Dinsmore spoke on alternative policing. The police are often called upon to respond to psychiatric issues, substance abuse and other incidents, making them mental-health workers of last resort minus the psychological training. People having mental-health episodes make up between a third and a half of police killings, she said. One in five young adults with one or more symptoms of autism are stopped by the police before the age of 21, and five percent are arrested. Saugerties police dealt with 161 mental-health-related calls in 2019, a 97 percent increase since 2013.
A 2020 study found that twelve percent of police officers had a mental-health diagnosis, and 26 percent a current mental-health issue. Few sought mental-health services.”
Among the solutions that have been proposed are police-mental health professional teams and standalone teams per shift or on call. “Unlike mental-health crises, domestic violence is a crime. The police are required to make an arrest,” Dinsmore said.
She offered additional statistics: Saugerties police responded to 261 domestic violence calls in 2019. Nationally, 40 percent of law-enforcement families experience domestic violence compared to ten percent of non-law enforcement families. She offered suggested solutions: robust and detailed domestic-violence data, training in intervention, and prevention programs for officer-involved domestic violence.
Replying to Dinsmore’s presentation, Justine Gauckler asked whether the statistic of 26 percent of police officers had a mental-health problem referred to the Saugerties police. Dinsmore said the data was national. Could the committee find the percentage for Saugerties police?
Dinsmore responded that there were issues of confidentiality, But it was clear that some police officers who had issues like depression and post-traumatic stress were reluctant to seek mental-health services. “One of the things we’re looking at is how we encourage people – and part of that is confidentiality,” said Dinsmore. :We are looking at it, Justine, and we’re glad you’re on it.”
Living with domestic abuse
Amy Fradon said she was a survivor of domestic violence and spent six years desperately trying to figure out a way to get away. “It was a local Town of Olive police sergeant, who believed thoroughly in community policing, who worked with me personally for six months talking to me on the phone, coming up with a strategy, a plan getting me to trust that the police would be there,” Fradon said. “That was the only thing that could get me out after six years.” She wondered what the Saugerties police were doing in terms of community policing.
Later in the meeting, Fradon thanked the committee for its work and stressed the importance of community policing and training to develop sensitivities to the public and especially crime victims.
Sinagra said that community policing and domestic violence were two very different topics. “Our officers do follow up with all of our domestic-violence issues,” he said. “We’re the only agency in the county that does lethality assessments, and we’re only the second agency in the county that is doing violence intervention programs – the City of Kingston does them.”
The Saugerties police work with a number of countywide domestic violence forces. “Domestic violence is one of my pet peeves; that’s why we have a purple-and-white police car, and have had one for the past six years. We want to bring attention every day to the seriousness of this problem.”
Tinamarie Williams asked whether there’s a policy for when an officer commits domestic violence.
Chief Sinagra replied that “the policy that pertains to a police officer is the policy that pertains to any situation of domestic violence. We take it to heart if it’s a civilian or if it’s a police officer.”
Lanny Walter suggested that people who have a problem with the Saugerties Police should write to the committee. “Maybe there are ways we can guide the situation, or at least make suggestions about what is not happening now that could happen,” he said.
Responsibilities and expectations
Several other participants had questions or comments.
Mark Hoffstatter suggested that this group, along with similar groups across the county, to speak up about having mental-health facilities, as has been done recently by HealthAlliance, returned to Ulster ounty. “That [moving the facilities out of the county] can cause bigger problems,” he said.
Gina Kiniry spoke on community education and outreach: how the Saugerties Police Department will communicate and interact with the community; and how the community will interact and communicate with the police. “The first step is we have to have a mutual understanding of what the roles and responsibilities are of the PD,” Kiniry said. “What are those policies and procedures?”
Also involved are the roles, responsibilities and the expectations of the community, she said. “What are our concerns, and what are our expectations? What are our suggestions?” The two-way understanding is the goal of the governor’s mandate, she said. “This is a process. It has to be ongoing, it has to be sustainable, and it has to be proactive.”
The process for community-police dialogue “has to be tailored for Saugerties,” Kiniry said. The dialogue should lead to partnership, and “these are partnerships that need to be formed.”
The surveys that people returned were important, Kiniry said. They showed interest and care. “People took a lot of time over their answers, and they had a lot of good ideas. They made comments, and they made suggestions.” Kiniry \stressed the importance of reaching out to people who have not participated in the process. They might not have Internet access, or they may have a language barrier.
Justine Gauckler wanted to know whether the police had a policy for dealing with black teenage boys in the interaction of the State Police and the Saugerties Police. “Like the chief just said, they work hand in hand. If you all work hand in hand, then you should call the State Police out when they discriminate against the black kids in this town; and if you’re working hand in hand make sure. that the State Police don’t come to a black woman’s house being a little bit racist.”
A questioner listing herself only as anonymous asked about police policy on investigating “people in high places.”
“We don’t discriminate against anyone,” Sinagra replied. “Anyone who knows me knows I’m a straight shooter, I don’t care what your status is in this community. If you break the law, we’re going to deal with it. I just started my 34th year in law enforcement, and I’ve been that way throughout my career.”
Anti-bias training?
Full committee member Annette Mulyanti said the Saugerties Police Department’s accountability level starts with the sergeant on every shift. The police have an internal affairs department, which in larger departments can include outside people, Mulyani said.
In Saugerties internal affairs are the responsibility of the chief, the captain and the lieutenant. They have specific training that enables them to be investigators. The committee will look into that aspect further, Mulyanti said.
The police department is accountable to the town board, the village mayor, and the county district attorney. The district attorney’s job is to work hand in hand with the police department to prosecute those who have been charged, but “they are also working at a county level as internal affairs for the various police departments.” Other agencies include the New York Attorney General’s office, the FBI and and the U.S. Attorney’s office. The committee is looking into the possibility of a permanent civilian oversight board, currently there is none in Saugerties.
Other areas the committee is looking at include whistle blower protections and camera legislation. The officers do have body cameras, but we’re looking at disciplinary measures for possible criminal prosecution of officers who turn off their cameras … and we’re looking into prosecution of officers who fail to intervene at the scene. The committee is looking at mental health services for officers who may be stressed.” The committee is hoping to have penalties in place for people who make racially motivated harassing phone calls.
Justine Gauckler asked whether the mental-health aspect for officers should be required. “Because even if you feel you’re in good mental health, there’s nothing wrong with talking to a therapist. Can that be required?” Her second question was “how long is police training? How long is the academy? Are they participating in any diversity or culturally rich classes at this time?”
Sinagra said basic Police Academy is six months, and it’s the same for State Police, local police or deputy sheriffs. “We all get the same training. We have a psychologist and a psychiatrist on staff to do evaluations. To be a police officer you have to pass a psychological test, a polygraph test, a drug test and an intensive background investigation. Any time during the course of their employment here, any time that we see that an officer may be developing anything to do with home, anything that reflects on their performance we do, and I have the authority to send them to our department psychiatrist for an evaluation, and since 2012 there have been two occasions where I have done that.”
Issues of training
Sinagra said the department does provide forms of specialized training. “Two years ago we had LGBTQ come in,” Sinagra said. “We’ve had the Ulster County Human Rights Commission come in and do training.”
“I meant specifically,” Gauckler said. “What is the Police Department doing so you understand how black people interact, why we interact with the police the way we do, like little micro things that we need to come together with to forge a relationship that we can keep in Saugerties?”
“We try to find specific training that speaks to exactly that; the closest thing we have is called principled police, treating everybody with equity and with respect,” Sinagra replied. “So everybody who is listening knows, I have three black grandchildren, so I’m very empathetic when it comes to understanding … If you know any specific training that addresses that issue, I would be happy to entertain it here with our agency.”
Guardians, not warriors
In his presentation, Joe Puma talked about in-service training, which goes far beyond the basic requirements. That training includes firearms, legal updates, review of laws and review of force and review of deadly physical force.
“We would like to go from a paramilitary-based training to a more academy approach,” he said. This would center on “a vision of police as guardians, not warriors. We would like to emphasize bias training … extensive and continuous legal training and most importantly, alternative tactics or de-escalation.” Puma said this would cost some money, but it will be part of the committee’s recommendations.
Puma finished by thanking Mike Flanigan, who was at the meeting, for sharing his son Ian [Ian Flanigan, who placed third in the national “The Voice competition] during the Covid epidemic. It was a big thing for my family, and I know it was for others.”
Not acting differently
One woman who said she had examined disciplinary records in the schools for racial disparities asked whether police records showed the interaction with school resource officers (SROs). Sinagra said that the summary reports don’t break statistics down by race, but “if there is specific information you are looking for, give me a call, we can provide that information.”
Equity in policing involves not acting differently toward different groups, he said. “If you don’t collect data, you can’t analyze it,” the questioner responded.
Gilda Riccardi said that the committee will be working with that type of information in the final report. Robert Thomann, also the president of the school board, said it would be important to know whether an intersection between a student and the resource officer was initiated by the student or the officer.
Several other speakers had comments on this topic, including Gauckler, who felt that racial attitudes could hinder the resource officer’s ability to understand some students’ problems.
“My people came to these shores, mostly from Europe, and assumed the role of dominant group,” Lanny Walter said by way of introduction of his talk on racial bias. “People of color had no voice in this democracy.” Walter outlined the history of racism in America, including such incidents as the so-called “doll test,” in which young white children, and their colored counterparts all preferred white dolls. They saw white dolls in pictures as “smarter, friendlier, prettier, and thought poorly of the dark skinned dolls in the pictures, stupider, meaner, uglier.” George Floyd was killed by a white police officer, “and when people of color witness that tragedy, they know they are still thought of as inferior humans by some.”
People of color are not treated with the same respect as white people in many parts of this country, Walter said, and asked whether the Saugerties Police might not be entirely immune from this historical bias.
The policies of the Saugerties Police Department insist that officers treat all persons with respect, but even when trained to adhere to those policies it may reduce the bias, but does not necessarily eliminate it,” Walter said. The committee’s job will include evaluating the inservice anti-bias training the Saugerties Police use to determine its effectiveness, follow up and evaluation,” Walter said.
One member of the audience recalled an accident in which a group of young black men who were afraid to drive through the center of Saugerties, were driven by a young woman up Washington Avenue, She apparently lost control of the car, smashing into a wall. The four men were killed; the woman was badly injured. The speaker said the accident was the result of fear of a racist attack, which may have been unjustified but was real to them.
At the end of the meeting, Riccardi suggested that the women who had a particular interest in the way cases were handled in Family Court may want to organize a meeting with the police chief. She reiterated that the focus of the meeting on Wednesday was defining the mission of the task group.
Join the family! 
